Aug. 17 1999

HEAVEN!

The Grand Debate

Sensing that they had a subject that a lot of supermarket readers would

buy a Sun Tabloid to read, a Sun reporter here has interviewed or

at least quoted other people with a lot to say about Heaven to contrast

with what the Pope and the Jesuits have now reportedly said...

The chosen few were Billy Graham, Robert Schuller, Pat

Robertson, Dr. Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, and

Dr. Deepak Chopra...

Since the Reverend Billy Graham seems to have chosen to defend in

the Sun Tabloid the "traditional beliefs" about Heaven we will

critique this "defence" on this web page.

Now the Reverend Billy

Graham is a nice man, and

so far as I know has never

done as Jimmy Swaggart

has, but as a spokesman

here for Evangelical Christianity, and one who has "said his piece" many times in the

regular Newspapers, as well as getting full page spreads in many of the Tabloids

quite frequently, he is eligible as a public figure to have these words criticised...And

especially so as he is apparently disagreeing, in whole or in part with measured

statements, made after considerable research no doubt, by a major Jesuit Journal

and a Pope who is famous the world over for his humanitarian concern as well as being

the leader of several Billion Roman Catholics!

I think also that it is fair to assume that Reverend

Billy, "minister for America", proof-read and

approved every word that "Beth Gimmel" here

wrote and attributed to him before spreading these

words to thousands of super-market checkout

displays and the millions who cannot help but

see his picture once more associated with that

of Pope John Paul II....Also many actually buy

these Tabloids and read them from cover to cover!

Again we're probably talking millions more!

Enough said, let the DEBATE begin!

My Authority....

From the Sun Tabloid:

1a "Known as 'America's

minister' for decades,..has

discussed his views on

the afterlife in hundreds

of sermons, lectures, books

We shall find that Evangelist Graham is here using his "bully pulpit",

supporting his statements by a verse here, and an experience or idea

perhaps quite un-Biblical there, with no regard for any real "proof"

that what he is saying is supported by either fact or logic!

 From the Sun Tabloid:

1b.."There are certainly

cases, including that of my

own mother, when a

dying person may be given

a glimpse of Heaven,..."

 I saw it in my mother's eyes!

[Appeal to the

emotions of

his readers]

Here the Reverend is referring, quite transparently I would say, to the

hundreds or perhaps thousands of "near death" experiences that have

made the rounds of TALK SHOWS, and been written up in many

books, most of which can be found under "New Age' in large book-

stores such as Waldenbooks and Dalton....Since Billy's mother was

a Christian, she must have glimpsed "Heaven"....However, more

often than not these "Near Death" experiencers have not been

Christians or even people of "Faith"....Some were sure that the

"person in white" they saw at the "end of the tunnel" was female,

not male!....However, even the Pope, it seems now, has his doubts

about the MALE-NESS of God [the Goddess?]

"Death but a gate .."

From the Sun Tabloid:

"The experienceof death

is but a gateway to an

eternity of conscious life

after death."

Here the Baptist preacher is agreeing in part with the Pope, but talking,

as we shall see, about a real place, not just "being with God".............

However, he is also agreeing with stone-age men who were buried with

weapons and ornaments, with Egyptian Pharaohs who were made into

mummies, and with the Greek "gods" and "half-gods" who populated

the minds of Pagans of the time of Christ and before..........................

And with every New Age guru including Dr. Deepak Chopra, who is

quoted next after Rev. Graham....

But he is disagreeing [and he knows it] with the entire Old Testament

Scriptures, whose inspired authors, along with King Solomon, accord-

ing to the Bible the "wisest man" in the whole world, did not believe

in the "consciousness after death" described by "America's Minister".

Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the

dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward;

for the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now

perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in

any thing that is done under the sun...

10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might;

for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor

wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."

For 4000 years, from Adam to Jesus, God's prophets, priests, and

Biblical scribes were not allowed to have the opinions expressed

by the Reverend Billy Graham [and the Reverend knows that!]

"The resurrection of Jesus

Christ is one of the best-

attested facts of history,

and demonstrates that

there is life beyond the

grave."

 "..one of the best-

attested facts of

history..."

I cannot believe that Reverend Billy Graham has neglected to read

any of the thousands of articles and books written by other writers

and theologians critical of the Gospel accounts of the resurrection of

Jesus Christ....No one in modern times would dare make a movie, or

host a TV show on a major network on these subjects without

at least reviewing such critical research....

Researchers know, for instance, that the last few verses of the

Gospel of Mark, thought by almost all to be the first Gospel

written, from which portions were "copied" by other Gospel

writers, were added later..and that the Gospel originally ended with:

"And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they

trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any man;

for they were afraid." Mark 16:8

The remainder of Mark disagrees with this verse, and can be seen as a summary

of accounts in other Gospels, all of which disagree in important details with each

other...As Reverend Billy Graham knows, it is impossible without using Gospel

"Pesher" techniques to prove any logical or coherent account of the resurrection,

and events following the resurrection....

There is only one extra-Biblical account of the resurrection, that of

Flavius Josephus, and until recently no-one was willing to defend

this statement of Josephus as anything more than a later Christian

interpolation in the writings of Josephus.

 

First point: One can hardly call the resurrection

of Jesus "one of the best-attested facts of

history" based on conflicting accounts in the

Gospels, and one extra-Biblical reference of

questionable validity!

 

Second Point: If one must depend, as Graham

implies, on this one questionable story by

unknown disciples of a historically unverifiable

account of someone who came back from the

dead as a living, breathing, and alive "from then

on" person for a belief in a real resurrection of

long-dead individuals, whose bodily cells have

rotted away, and have "returned to dust",

then such a resurrection of anyone else,

is indeed on very shaky ground!

[Which is exactly what the Jesuits and Pope are saying, and Billy

Graham is unwilling to say....They, in this case are being HONEST,

and he, UNSCIENTIFIC...They have never seen in 2000 years any

EVIDENCE of such a resurrection, and he in his short lifetime has

never seen any evidence of such a resurrection either!]

Both BIBLE CODES, the "Gospel Pesher" for the New

Testament, and the so-called "Torah Codes" for the Old Testament

show what really happened in regards to the RESURRECTION:

A critical reading of the Gospel of John shows that Jesus was

resucitated after several hours of deep unconsciousness, partly

drug induced, after undergoing the torments of a very real

crucifixion...

Paul, although allowed by the Essenes to delude us Gentiles on

most other matters, was not allowed to say that Christ's body

was degraded by death [made impossible to resusitate]...

 

The text is Acts 13:35-37 "..Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see

corruption...For David, after he had served his own generation

and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:....

But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption."

[The Gospel "Pesher" shows Jesus was physically present at this meeting

in which Paul said this, somewhat crippled by his crucifixion wounds, but

obviously alive, human, and vulnerable as we are!]

 

There is an important difference being made here and this

difference is CRITICAL to the idea that what happened to

Jesus Christ is a guarantee that long-dead people will be brought

back to life with a body similar to the one they once "owned"

with personality and memory completely intact!

King Solomon, after studying ancient documents

no longer available, said that hadn't happened, and

will never happen...and now the Jesuits and Pope

John Paul II , after studying what has happened

since King Solomon died, are agreeing with him!

 

Today shalt thou be

with me in Paradise!

 "To the repentent thief on

the cross,Jesus said; Today

shalt thou be with me in

paradise.' This would indi-

cate that the soul of a

Christian at death goes

immediately to be with the

Lord in glory."

As a young Seventh-day Adventist I was taught the answer to this

apparent contradiction to the Old Testament Scriptures...The comma

here was placed by King James's translaters...If placed AFTER "today"

not BEFORE it, the immediacy of the thief's "reward" is removed, and

could occur at any time in the future....There were no punctuation

marks in the original....

What's more convincing is that in the Gospel narratives, Jesus

spent three days in either "Hades", where he preached to the

victims of Noah's flood [1 Peter 3:19, 20 as compared with the

Essene Book of Enoch], or rested quietly as a "sleep"

[as Jesus himself taught]...

"On the third day, Jesus told Mary Magdalene, "..I have not

yet ascended to my Father." John 20:17b. [As a symbolic

THIRD DAY prophecy, 2000 years later

(2 millennial days), Jesus has not yet died (ascended to his

Father), because his human life was miraculously extended]

"Lo I am with you alway, even until the end of the AEON [Age]"

Matthew 28:20b

Once again, the Gospel "Pesher" is even more devastating to Rev.

Billy Graham's reasoning [which may be why few ministers if

any at all pay attention the Dr. Barabara Thiering's BIBLE CODE

breakthrough]...

The "Pesher" shows the "repentent thief" to be the Zealot Samaritan Priest

Simon Magus, who survived crucifixion along with Jesus, but with

broken legs that took a while to mend...He spent that evening with Jesus in

"Paradise", which was the Essene nickname for Cave 7 at Qumran,

the temporary tomb of the "Rich Man" or "David King"...These nicknames

were not constant but changed from one "Parable" to the next....This

same cave, cave 7 and 8 [joined] was "Hades" of the Parable of the "Rich man

and Lazarus", allowing Peter to say that Jesus spent time in "Hades"

preaching to the "spirits in prison "[again 1 Peter 3:19, 20].

 

[Those Essene caves at Qumran were rather HOT at least in the daytime,

and one might wish for a cool drink now and then..."Abraham's Bosom"

was across the chasm "no man can cross" in Cave 4, where so many

scroll fragments of a controversial nature were found in the 40's and 50's]

From the Sun Tabloid:

"At the same time, that is

not the final state of the

believer, for at the resur-

rection, the bodies and

souls of believers will be

reunited and will be given

a glorified body which will

live forever in God's

presence."

At the same time,

this is not the final

state of the believer..

By the phrase "at the same time", Rev. Graham shows he realizes

his arguments are not consistent, and there are logical problems here..

...Problems he intends to address only by stating that both concepts

are indeed true, and infer there are no inconsistancies when there are...

 

Logic cries out that if Christians [and a number of others it seems if

we are to believe Dr. Chopra and "Near Death" experiencers] go

immediately to be with God, and are reunited with their loved ones

who have gone on before to "Paradise", there is NO NEED for

a resurrection as here described by Pastor Graham!

 

Such a resurrection would be not only superfluous and redundant but

also hamper the freedom of those involved who are being asked to

exchange "perfection" for something potentially less than perfect.

 

This is another problem that the Jesuits and Pope are attempting

to solve LOGICALLY that Billy Graham and others are trying

to IGNORE....In critical Europe the Vatican knows that LOGIC

will rule the "New Age"...In the Bible Belt, Billy Graham hopes

the "New Age" will just go away!

A place of unfolding

knowledge

From the Sun Tabloid:

"For Graham, the afterlife

is a place of unfolding

knowledge, but also of

cherishing our memories of

life on earth."

Assuming again that we all go to be with God and the angels, who know

everything, and can go anywhere....instead of, as Solomon so plainly

said, being totally asleep and oblivious to anything that happens on earth,

Pastor Graham is once again trying to "have it both ways"...To make

everybody happy by ignoring the issues and acting as if they didn't

exist....Certainly sitting around "cherishing our memories of life on

earth" does not seem appropriate to saints now enjoying "so much

more" than earth had to offer!

 From the Sun Tabloid:

 

"The main torment of Hell,

he says, is the regrets of

what we should have

done"

 The main torment of

HELL...

Not willing to concede at all that there is no such a physical place as

hell, for "Hell-fire" is the main recruiter for new Baptists, Pastor

Graham skirts that issue by seemingly agreeing partially with the

Jesuits by not mentioning "Hell-fire" and the everlasting nature of

"Hell" as preached, and saying REGRET is the major issue, not

"Hell" itself!

Having now opened up this "can of worms", a thoughtful person

will wonder if those in "Heaven" have only a very selective "memory"

of their former activities on earth....Perhaps Rev. Graham has never

once done anything he "regrets", but others have, and if all those

who have "regrets" are in "Hell", then "Heaven" will indeed be an

underpopulated place in comparison to "Hell"!

Indeed, as preached by Baptist Evangelists, the only requirement

for "Heaven" is to have accepted Jesus and to have been baptized

by emersion by a Baptist preacher...and WORKS, good or bad,

have nothing to do with it!

And the best news is..."ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED!"

Heaven's rewards...

From theSun Tabloid:

"Heaven's rewards include

the joy of faithfulness and

being reunited with those

who have passed on before

us.

True whether or not heaven is a real place or not, and entirely

consistent with the Jesuit and Papal statements.............

However, ALSO TRUE if there is no heaven whatsoever,

since such a "satisfaction" can be a momentary feeling of a

job well done and a real or imagined connection with one's

ancestors.

"We will recognize our

loved ones in Heaven, and

they will recognize us...

Furthermore, the Bible

indicates that we will

know them in a far deeper

We will recognize our

loved ones..

and closer way than was ever possible on Earth - and without the imperfections and

sins that mar our human relationships on Earth."

This is still only Pastor Billy Graham's opinion...and carries the seeds

of its own destruction....If we, as he assumes, know everything and

perhaps are able to read people's minds in heaven, would it not be

likely to destroy those relationships maintained by one person keeping

quiet and electing to allow the other person to "boss them" and have

their own way?....And how many relationships are there that do not

allow this at least some of the time?....Remove these various habits

and accomodations and you are not dealing with the person you knew

on earth at all, but somebody totally different and foreign to you!

And the whole thing becomes a sham, an act without meaning!

1 Corinthians 13:12

From the Sun Tabloid: 

"Graham points to the Bible

-verse.."1 Corinthians 13:

12 - which reads: 'Now we

see but a poor reflection;

then we shall see face to

face...

Now I know in part; then shall I know fully, even as I am fully known."

Here Paul, the "Theologian" of the Church Age [Age of Pisces], of

the Christian "fishes", is letting it be known that a new and better Age

is coming....and that this Age will be on earth, not in a non-existent

"Heaven"....Since Rev. Billy Graham has chosen not to disturb his

own opinions with any knowledge of Biblical Numerology, the

Gospel "Pesher", and the newly popular Bible "Computer" Codes,

he is flying blindly into uncharted seas, and causing untold

millions to follow him, thus fulfilling another of Jesus's famous

sayings:

"Let them alone: they be blind leaders of

the blind...And if the blind lead the blind,

both shall fall into the ditch."

Matt. 15:14

The August 17, 1999 SUN Tabloid article

shows that some of the Jesuits and Pope John

Paul II are no longer completely in this category,

but have obtained a bit of the eyesalve offered

by Jesus to "Aquarians" in Rev. 3:18c.

If neither heaven nor hell, then ...Where?

OR

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